Ben Askren was on Lex Fridman’s podcast a little while ago. Here’s a clip:
Ben:
Uh, and I think it’s not just wrestling, not just the actual martial art of wrestling that contributes to our success in mixed martial arts, but other things like the way we’re systemized. So most kids will have went through the high school program and the college program, and they know how to show up on time, and they know how to work hard.
So when they go to ATT or AKA or wherever, they know how to show up on time and they know how to work hard and that’s going to get you a really long way. Just those two things, right?
Lex:
Not even the techniques, it’s just the discipline.
Ben:
Those things. Then I think you throw on top of that, the fact that most of us have competed 1500 to 2000 times, probably by the time we get to 20-something, like that’s a huge advantage to. Most of these other people from other disciplines, maybe it could be hundred. If that, right? So we have this competitive process down really, really, really, really well.
Lex:
Plus the weight cut.
Ben:
The weight cut. There’s all of these things, right? That factor into it. Um, I think the fact that we’re really open-minded like, I think if you would, I don’t want to pick on jiu-jitsu again, but like how many jiu-jitsu guys have became highly proficient in wrestling versus how many wrestling guys that became highly proficient in jiu-jitsu?
I think that number swings one way and not that much, the other way, you know, so we’re open to adapting and learning and, and for some reason, like jiu-jitsu people, how many of them got high-level wrestling or even mediocre wrestling? The number’s really small. Like they refuse to, it’s really frustrating. Like why won’t they do this, it’s obviously part of it.
You know, if like, I don’t want to pick on specific guys, but there’s certain guys in the history of MMA where you’re like, listen, man. I mean, Damian Maia who who’s my last fight is a great example of someone who actually did get proficient at wrestling. Right? But there’s some of these jiu-jitsu guys, it’s like, if you just got on top, you would submit him.
Why can’t you learn a freaking takedown, like holy moly, like just learn how to take someone down. Once you get them down, they will not get up. And you win the fight. Like it’s so easy, you know, but they refuse.
Lex:
How complicated is that journey? So like Danaher that you mentioned, Craig Jones, they’re big on wrestling as part of jiu-jitsu now, like wrestling, not just on the feet, but wrestling from the bottom coming up and all that kind of stuff.
So how difficult is that whole skill set would you say for the jiu-jitsu person to learn?
Ben:
Um, not that hard. If they really put their mind to it. Cause they already like, when you grapple and this, any grappling art, like there’s a certain part of it that you kind of get, and it can, it might not be the exact same thing, but you understand how your body moves, how to feel certain pressures and you can adapt yourself pretty quickly, you know?
So I don’t think it’d be, I think there’s just a certain level of stubbornness where they didn’t. Certain people didn’t want to do it for whatever reason. I think a lot of times in MMA is, uh, I’m so macho, I can stand and bang thing, you know, where they want to show how macho they are. Um, but yeah, that was a frustrating one that, that they, it there’s a lot of wrestlers who became highly proficient in jujitsu and really adapted, and it doesn’t go the other way.
And then I guess the other thing there too is. They can both steal from each other, right. As, as any, as any martial art can steal from another. And like, I feel like jiu-jitsu didn’t do enough stealing from wrestling. Like they should have looked at all the wrestling possible and said, well, why, why don’t we steal that and that, and that, you know?
And like, hey, let’s take that over. And maybe we’d make a little tweak because it’s different, but there’s some we can definitely use there. So like, in wrestling, for example, you know, there’s a one-arm guillotine in jiu-jitsu, right? Okay. So there’s a move called, well, it’s got a hundred names and it’s like the oldest move in wrestling. Cause it’s what they did to the cows where they go around the chin and they throw them on their back. I don’t know what you call that one.
Lex:
I don’t know. Sorry, did you just ask me what I call that one? Where you take the cow and grab a…
Ben:
No, but in wrestling. Okay. Yeah, you grab their chin and then you go under their arm and then throw them on their back. Yeah. So we call that the honey badger, but it’s got different names wherever you go with that different names. Um, so I would always, I would say like, pre-jiu-jitsu, I was, I was average at it. Like I could do it, but against good people, you’d never get it because they would get the back of their head up. And they were too strong where you couldn’t collapse them by going over their neck. Right? Because the forces weren’t. Right.
So then in jiu-jitsu you learn the one-arm guillotine where you grab their chin, and this is more of a running along the side of their head. And then, and then you go here and you choke them, right?
Much more efficient way to move their head because the fulcrum is way down here and their head can move into that. Right. So once I learned that in jiu-jitsu, I’m like, wait, I can do this in wrestling. So now once I went and I grabbed their chin the right way, and I do the honey badger, no one ever gets out.
I just had to steal that jiu-jitsu, put it in wrestling and boom, there we go.
Lex:
But very few people steal any direction. That takes creativity, an open mind.
Ben:
Really? It’s so easy because it’s already done. You just got to steal that.
Lex:
I mean, same with judo. If you’re a gi jiu-jitsu person, there’s so much stuff in judo that, um, that’s ripe for the stealing because judo much more emphasizes, uh, explosive, uh, moves on the transition, which is something jiu-jitsu does not do because you’ve seen–
Ben:
You mean from the take-down?
Lex:
From the takedown, but also just in general, just in the transition, the concept of transition.
Like jiu-jitsu is very much about like, we’re in this position, now we’re in this position, now we’re in this position. Judo is much more, when there’s chaos of any kind, that’s when you need to strike. And to learn that, I mean, that’s why people like Travis Stevens, a judoka, when they go to jiu-jitsu, they can dominate.
The whole episode is great and can be found here, and the video’s on YouTube.